21 Mar
Between the crappy economy and the fall of chivalry, there seems to be some real confusion around money and dating. While every single girl I’ve talked to expects the guy to pay on a date, it seems there are a lot of guys who are still quite unsure on the rules. This became particularly clear to me when, a while back, I had a bit of a money situation with Mr. Cute but Whiny. It went a little something like this:
The first time he and I went to dinner, he paid. From there, we had a bunch of non-dinner dates during which I paid for a few things (eg. popcorn at the movies or groceries for breakfast) but he picked up most the tabs. Then we went to dinner again. I suggested this nicer place because it is my fave, and when the bill came, I picked up the $125 tab. Not because I thought I had to, or because I thought it was fair, but because I wanted to impress him and I wanted to show him that I respected him for more than his wallet. He proceeded to go on an on about how awesome it was that I would do that. Then the next time we went on a dinner date (a few weeks later) the $60 bill comes and he asks me, “How do you want to do this?” I was mortified. In no way was my picking up the tab at Costa Brava an indication that I wanted to pay for myself all the time. And wow, talk about a lack of romance. He had already been bugging the shit out of me that night (made me drive, complained about how tired he was endlessly, talked about how much he hated flannel) but this kinda felt like a slap in the face. So after just looking at him in a bit of shock, I pulled out my wallet and offered to split the bill. I then dropped his ass off at home, told him, uh no, I wouldn’t be spending the night, and went out with my guy friends.
When we later talked about the incident (ok, fought about it) he was genuinely surprised that I cared. His argument was that I am such a strong, self-sufficient, modern woman that he didn’t think I wanted an old-fashioned guy who would pay for everything. And that’s when it dawned on me that guys just don’t understand why girls want them to pay. The truth is, it has absolutely nothing to do with money.
Girls want a guy to pay precisely because it is old-fashioned. We grew up being told that this was proper protocol for courtship, and while we have may bent many of the other old-school rules, deep down we all still want to be wooed. When a guy pays for a girl it tells her that he likes her, he wants to impress her and he definitely wants to date her. Of course he doesn’t want to spend his hard earned money (who does?!), but he is doing so because he wants his girl to feel special and cared for, and for that, us ladies are grateful.
The truth is, Mr. Cute but Whiny was right. I am a self-sufficient, modern woman, but that is exactly why I want a guy who will “take care of me.” Sure, at work I have no problem going toe-to-toe with the 60 year old man who is the CEO of a large company. But when I come home, I want to feel feminine. I actually like the idea of taking off my “work hat” and making dinner for my special someone or giving him a back rub at the end of a long day. I don’t want to be the bossy one in charge, or the one who has to make all the decisions. And frankly, dating a guy who thinks he doesn’t need to pay for me because he knows that I can afford it, or thinks I’d want to pay for myself, makes me resent my accomplishments. It fuels my biggest fear — that guys will always see me as someone who doesn’t “need” a man and thus won’t feel secure enough to date me.
So fellas, if you like a girl, and yet are still unsure of the when-to-pay rules, I’ve compiled a quick list below to help you navigate through this sticky situation:
- If it is a first date and you called her and asked her out – You pay
- If it is a first date and she called you and asked you out – You pay
- If it is a first date and you called her but she suggested the restaurant – You pay
- If it is a first date but you’ve already hooked up – You pay
- If it is a second date and you payed for the first date – You still pay
- If it is the 15th date – You pay
- If it is not a date – You both pay
Now this is not to say that a us ladies shouldn’t offer to pick up the tab every now and then. Of course we should. But for the most part, if you want your lady to feel special and you want to build a relationship, then my recommendation to all the guys out there would be to be prepared to get the bill. Don’t look at it as an unfair, sexist, outdated rule. Instead look at it as a really simple way to make your girl feel cared for while also giving her something to brag to all her friends about.
Guys know the answer to this! They just don’t want to recognize it. They have no problem buying drinks for girls while they are “shopping” for one to date… but as soon as it becomes dating, for some reason they forget. Dating amnesia.
Haha yes, true Natalie. Dating amnesia seems to be a bit of an epidemic, really…
Thanks for the comment
I don’t agree since I don’t buy drinks for girls at bars. I think it’s stupid because I don’t like the concept of buying a girl and making her feel indebted to talk to me. I’m hilarious and witty and she can buy her own drink.
I have no issues paying for girls on dates, but it’s obvious that some women want equality+.
How can it be equality when you expect us also to pay all the time? It gets old after a while.
Buying drinks in a bar is another story and I agree with you there, but I think the whole “it’s obvious some women want equality” is a bit of an urban myth. Sure, we don’t want to be prejudiced against, but I assure you, not one of the ladies I have talked to in my entire life has said, “man, I really wish a guy would let me pay.” Perhaps there is one loud-mouthed girl out there, spreading these lies – but I promise you – 99 percent of girls are hoping the guy will pay. And I also think equality isn’t the right word. Men and women aren’t equal. I think women just want to be seen with equity. As for it getting old after a while, I can think of quite a few female things that get old after a while too… Doesn’t mean we can just abandon them.
Thanks for reading!
Cali
So I have a question, I have this really good friend that is a girl, and we used to date a while back and have become just really good friends since then. when we were dating I paid for absolutely everything. now that we are just friends, anytime we go out to dinner or a movie or anything its still expected that I pay. is she just spoiled or is this really normal? lol
Uhhhh no – she is spoiled. Stop paying, my dear! If you are friends, there is absolutely no reasons that you should be paying every time. In other news, congrats to you for being so gentlemanly. Whoever does date you is a lucky girl
Save your money for that pretty lady!
Thanks for reading,
Cali
I will always pay. Always. I feel really really awkward (image that, me awkward) if a girl I’m dating pays. And the only way that would happen if she’s the kind that will forcefully grab the check, while you’re both tugging at it, threatening to make a scene unless she pays. I prefer when she pseudo grabs for your purse, then I politely say “I’ve got dinner”.I think it’s a nice gesture if she pays, but not necessary. I’m not saying you’re incapable of paying, but there’s no reason for you to pay.I get overpaid to sit in my cube and smash buttons, I insist I pay for dinner and drinks.
See, Steve, you are a stand-up guy. And there really are quite a few guys out there that are like you. These type of guys give me hope
Yes, the pseudo purse grab is a favorite of mine and I like your point about being overpaid to sit in your cubicle. I didn’t want to get all controversial, and bring up the whole, men make more than women deal, BUT they do. In fact, pretty much every guy I have ever dated made quite a bit more than I do. Does that mean he has to pay – no. But it means I certainly appreciate it when he does.
Thanks for the comment!
Cali
Cali–
Never married women make more than never married men.
Men make more overall cause the work harder, longer and in more moneyed / less status, job satisfaction jobs on average – basically for their wives and family. If they have neither and don’t expect to they don’t.
The men YOU DATE make more than you because that’s what attracts you, and they’re happy with that too. Female hypergamy.
If he doesn’t make a whole lot more, dating costs should be split.
I’d insist on it.
True.. it makes us feel special.
Also, a little money saved can make room for some more heels.
Bitchzilla on The loose.
Haha yes!! So true. I mean, the money we save can be put towards buying attractive clothes, which will make them even more proud to be seen with us. See, everyone wins!
Thanks for the comment!
-Cali
I usually offer to pay for my own drinks or meal but really I want the guy to pay. Especially if it’s the first date and especially if he’s the one who asked me out.
Totally agree with this: “When a guy pays for a girl it tells her that he likes her, he wants to impress her and he definitely wants to date her.”
Same. I always offer, as it is polite, but I would definitely be a bit offended if the guy took me up on it. Thanks for reading!
-Cali
I appreciate your honest opinions as they are very insightful, if fucking disappointing.
Don’t get me wrong, I always pay on a first date and always assume I’ll be picking up the check on subsequent dates as that’s always the smart play, but Cali, if your offer to pay is insincere, don’t make the offer, especially if you will be offended if he accepts. That is not being polite. That’s playing games.
Fair enough. Perhaps offended wasn’t the correct word. Maybe just bummed. Because to me, that would say that this guy isn’t trying to impress me and that doesn’t bode well for the future of our relationship. Thanks for your comment and your perspective.
girls want equality when its about the earnings, not the spendings
fall of chivalry = raise of feminism
you cant keep the old fashioned men and the modern woman together. short story: men will get hurt, women will feel unsatisfied
if you do get to a point where you are toe-toe with a big major male CEO, chances are you will have lost all of your feminine attributes
anyway: of course the male has to put energy into courtship, and when its well put and wanted, it does make you feel special. thats how it works in nature and works with us. so, I do usually pay for stuff, but I keep my eye on whether its taken as a “gift” or if its taken for granted
I have seen so many guys paying for everything (compensating) and getting nothing out of it
An excellent point. It is often just quite natural, when a relationship is working and the fact that Mr. Cute but Whiny and I even had to have this conversation, proved that this was not going well. And you are dead-on that a guy shouldn’t do it if this gift is being taken for granted. I know there are certainly girls out there who would do that and I would never recommend that to my guy friends.
Finally, I agree with you that the fall of chivalry is in direct relation to the rise of feminism. That being said, I refuse to believe that we can’t all meet in the middle. You can’t tell me that just because I am a strong woman, I am going to have to just DEAL with a lack of romance. Women (and men for that matter) aren’t just one thing. I’m not just a strong woman. I have layers and I want a guy who can appreciate all aspects of me. (That isn’t intended to sound corny).
Anywho, always appreciate your insightful comments!
-Cali
You know, if it wasn’t so brazenly, obviously and unashamedly hypocritical, I’d just pass it over.
But let’s get this straight.
Women deserve equal treatment and equal consideration when it comes to everything that could be construed as a benefit.
When it comes to expenses, and taking risks in dating (the guy must ask the girl out), then the man is still responsible.
You want to have your cake and eat it, too. I see. One day it will come ringing home loud and true: With freedom and independence comes, … *freedom and independence”. This requires responsibility and … wait for it, … independence.
Once upon a time, men did these things naturally because shelling out accrued *benefits* for them.
There was a tacit understanding – a “social contract”, a “deal”, that applied. Men behaved chivalrously towards women who deserved chivalrous treatment (there were definitely classes of female “companionship” and levels of chivalrous behavior).
Women have largely abdicated any sense of the reciprocal arrangements that made this a decent deal for guys.
And yet, Proud, Independent, Fully Equal women want to have the benefits of Emancipation from the Patriarchy but want to selectively avoid the actual *PRICE* of independence?
Please.
I’ve never, ever respected a woman who claimed she was either a feminist or took advantage of feminist victories and then turned around and tried to wrangle traditional concessions out of men based on half of a prior social contract.
Get over yourself, little girls. Either grow up and be Modern Women – with all that that implies – or stop pretending to be the equals of men.
It’s not too much to ask that you stop taking benefits and advantages while refusing to pony up the costs.
I’m gonna guess you haven’t been reading this blog, or you would realize that most of your above comment is not relevant to me. A. I’ve already stated I don’t think men and women are equals. We are too different. Rather I think feminism is women wanting to be seen as having equity. B. I have written a post and had a guest post about how I think women should ask out guys. So I am not shying away from all responsibility that comes with being a modern women. C. I think you missed the point of the post. It was not to say why guys HAD to pay. it was to explain to guys why girls want you to pay. You don’t have to agree with it, but it doesn’t make it any less true. D. You are assuming that women are only one thing. eg. if we are strong, we can’t ask to be cared for or vice versa. We just aren’t that simple. (Nor are men, for that matter).
In any case, I appreciate your comment and it is always nice to hear the other side of the debate.
-Cali
On the other hand, when a woman makes an admission that perhaps modern social expectations – actual equality and purely equal consideration – are maybe unnatural and the old system was, in many ways, better for some women, and THEN refuses to pay for her meals and entertainment – fine. But she’s usually brought something else to the table to make the exchange (because this is exactly what it is) amenable – an attitude, an outlook, some loyalty, discretion, modesty.
But expecting all the goodies without the costs of modern life sets you up for major fail.
Ok but, that’s exactly my point. What if I am bringing all (or some) of those things to the table AND I am a strong woman. Does that not mean I am able to be treated with chivalry and respect? You are making this argument too black and white. I am not expecting all the goodies without the costs of modern life. This is simply one aspect of modern life – how the bill should be handled during courtship.
“I am a self-sufficient, modern woman, but that is exactly why I want a guy who will “take care of me.” Sure, at work I have no problem going toe-to-toe with the 60 year old man who is the CEO of a large company. But when I come home, I want to feel feminine.”
What an absurd, delusional statement. You will never find a real man to put up with this crap for any length of time. Prepare yourself for the disappointment of a lifetime of bumbling provider betas, who will never really make you feel feminine. They lack the ability.
Your mindset is one of the messed up results of feminism. We’ve created a generation of entitled princesses who expect the best of both worlds. It doesn’t work like that. You will end up lonely if you keep this awful attitude. Men are sick and tired of this game you play. You can’t play the role of the professional, independent, hear-me-roar woman, only to turn around and expect to be “taken care of,” made to “feel feminine,” and paid for at every turn. Funny how you’ll turn off your “independence” at the thought of a free meal.
Ha, well you are certainly welcome to that opinion all though I am fascinated why you would react so strongly to that statement! To me, that says a lot more about who you are.
Again – didn’t say I wanted to be paid for at every turn. Simply was explaining the reasoning behind why girls want to be paid for. You don’t have to like it or believe it. But it seems to be a pretty commonplace perspective amongst females in their 20s and I doubt angry comments on blogs are going to change that.
I have to comment as well regarding @TunaCrab’s statement. I think it is a tad comic that we are not allowed to “feel feminine” or “feel cared for” when we are not in professional mode.
I mean, back in the day, when feminism was not even a word and men worked in the office/women stayed at home, the man when he got home, was “cared for” and his needs were “taken care of” because he was the breadwinner. In this modern age, with women bringing in the money as well as their male counterparts, shouldn’t we have the same privileges as well? shouldn’t we as breadwinners also be made to “feel cared for” and “loved” ???
I am in a relationship were we both make decent amounts of $$, and we both treat other with love and respect aka he spots / I spot / he buys me gifts / I buy him gifts, he buys groceries this week, I buy groceries the next, etc. etc. We honestly really don’t care about the $$ spent, but we do care that our partner feels loved in part because of the $$ that I or he spent on each other.
In the end, it all boils down to how unselfish you are and how much of a decent person you are that you are strong enough to show respect to anyone regardless of financial standing by showing them in ways that you care for them, such as paying the tab.
Fantastic point about how men want to be cared for and have their needs met when they leave the office. And I agree with your final statement as well – that it all boils down to showing respect. That’s why girls want you to pay for them, not because they don’t want to pay. And that’s why girls will pay for their men from time to time as well.
Thanks for the comment!
Ladies deserve chivalry. Carrie Bradshaw wannabes need to pay their own way. Men who pay all the time are chumps. Working women who expect to be paid for all the time are bitches. I guess they deserve each other.
My my, you are an angry reader. You are welcome to that opinion but seeing as how you don’t know me from a hole-in-the-wall, I’m not going to put a whole lot of worth in that statement. I am curious, however, why this blog post would make you so angry. It seems like a bit of an over-reaction. Anywho, best of luck to you!
I didn’t take your offer to pick up the check that first time as a message that you were independent and didn’t want to be taken care of, so I’m not sure why Cute and Whiny would have.
When I go out with a guy I am always prepared to pay; and when I reach for the check, I mean it. Especially if I asked for the date, picked the place, etc.
But I expect to be on equal ground, especially if the dates are going to continue. So, when he grabs the check, I expect that to be sincere, too.
I’m not interested in who makes more money, or being taken care of. I’m interested in knowing that we are on an equal playing field and that he is acknowledging that fact.
Good point. I too am always prepared and I am sincere when I reach for the wallet. But I am hoping he’ll say, oh no, I’ve got it. And every time, other than that one time, that is precisely what has happened. (Unless it is a time where I say, hey, I am going to take you to dinner and there are no ifs ands or buts). Thanks for the comment.
Let’s be real. If a guy is writing a novel-length bitter comment criticizing your dead-on observations on your light-hearted single girl dating blog, he has his other monitor (yes, he has at least 2) open to warcraft while he is simultaneously pining over some japanese anime character he’s convinced will one day appear on his doorstep.
That being said – for those of us actually living in the modern dating world – Cali didn’t write anything new or up for debate. The rule is clear – when you are dating – the GUY PAYS. It is 2011 and double standards are still in full force. Example: guy has sex w/ 44 chicks = baller/pimp/admired. girl has sex w/ 10 dudes = slut/whore/damaged goods.
This is the one last area where we can finally feel special, feminine, and taken care of. Today, guys hardly have to put in any effort to date a girl: a simple poke on facebook, a text, etc. The least you can do is reaffirm that yes, you give a shit, and for a guy – the best way to do that is to pay for the meal. If you can’t afford a fancy dinner, take us to the local mexican place you love. It’s NOT about the money – it’s about making us feel like you care and are excited to date us.
(p.s. good to know you like it when we go for our wallet, i usually do – and am pleased if he says he is covering it.)
Bwhahahah, warcraft. Love it. Thanks Lex and excellent point about the other many double standards out there and that we would much prefer a $5 burrito that is paid for us than a fancy dinner you can’t afford. Thanks for the comment!
-Cali
Lex, you took the words right out of my fingers. I can’t believe these comments. We haven’t uncovered the mystery of the pyramids, here. I think Cali is just pointing out what it’s like here, right now, in 2011 during the ever-changing mixed signals involved in dating that stem from all of these ways to communicate(um, texting? Facebook? Gchat? E-mail?), and of course the double standards that DO still exist and dangit all we want is a guy to maybe open the car door for us and pay for a meal. My question is, when did men stop wanting to do these things?
It isn’t about the money. We can take care of ourselves. But I always thought the point of dating was to eventually come to the point where you can take care of each other. Cali is pointing out the way it is for the majority of us women who went to college, have jobs, have our own apartments, are completely self-sustaining yet still secretly dream about the man who will sweep us off our feet–even if it is through the $5 burrito. That’s totally cool.
Bravo Cali for pointing out a bit of a sensitive topic. Per usual, men are quick to slam us down.
Thank you Kel! So nice to hear that this post wasn’t an earthshaking revelation for everyone… And great question. I really don’t know the why, but clearly if you read these comments, there are a lot of guys who definitely do not want to do these things anymore. Maybe they were burned? Maybe they feel marginalized by the “modern woman” and this is how they lash out. Whatever the case is, it is sad. Because their anger is getting in the way of them making some girl somewhere feel like a million bucks.
The girl I am currently seeing (non-exclusive right now, moving happily toward exclusivity) went like this: date 1, I paid. Date 2 was a hike, and then we grabbed burritos and we each paid for ourselves due to me watching her dog outside of the restaurant while she ordered and her watching her dog while I ordered. I didn’t want to just hand her some cash, it would have been awkward.
Date 3 I paid, she offered to pay tip (I think this is a really cute way of letting the girl throw in a couple of dollars or at least offering) I didn’t let her.
Date 4, we went to a nice restaurant (her pick) and she grabbed the check. She went to pay, and I asked if she was sure, (she said she was sure) and then I offered to pay tip. She accepted.
She makes way more than me, so I hope as we’re a couple it’s more of a 50-50 thing. My ex and I really split things down the middle and we liked having it that way.
The only thing that bothered me was the feeling like you wanted a man to pay for you forever…it gets old paying double when you’re in a relationship, especially when the girl makes more than you or close to that.
In the era where men paid all the time, women often lived at home with their parents and were just biding their time until they became housewives.
A man would court a woman, they would date, eventually go steady, and then eventually perchance get married.
In today’s society, a man courts a woman while simultaneously courting others while she is simultaneously being courted by others. It’s a bit of slippery slope.
And lastly, I have been on dates with women who are seriously only out there dating for free meals/drinks and I think of these women as escorts without the putting out part. And those women are giving other women a bad name because it’s making more men in my generation wary of paying because we wonder if the girl is only going out with us to get a meal because she has no self respect.
One girl I went out with, we had our date and she actually whipped out her wallet and demanded to pay her 50%. She thought it was bullshit that women expected men to pay, and she wasn’t a whore.
Maybe she just didn’t want to sleep with me, but I was surprised when she said, “please don’t fight with me on this one, let me pay my half.”
Sad because we had no connection or spark. But she was super cool.
Ah yes, let me clarify, once you are in relationship land – that is a different story. And I think that has a different set of rules for each couple. This is purely in regards to the beginning dating/courtship. Sounds like you are a classy guy though, so really you don’t need this advice!
Chivalry is a definite lost act, though in the changing climate I feel there should be a class given on how to date in today’s world.
Agenda
A. Chivalry is a must
B. If u make the plans u pay for the plans
C. When in doubt u pay
D. Compliments never get old
E. Put in as much effort in planning the date as she does getting ready for the date
Someone should write a quick reference card on how to be a gentlemen in our changing society!
Ricky! What a refreshing and lovely list. The funny thing is, guys are often so busy trying to get into our pants, that they don’t realize that these “old school” techniques will get them so much farther. Love your point E. Thanks for reading and for the comment.
-Cali
Hi Cali,
I thought I’d give my point of view from ‘across the pond’ and I have to say that I don’t agree that a guy should pay all the time.
If a guy makes the first move and asks a girl out on a first date, then I think he should pay. I would offer to split it and it wouldn’t be the end of the world if he accepted that offer. But it’s certainly nicer if he refuses.
But after that first date, if the woman has decided that she likes him enough to see him again, then I think equality comes in and I would always offer to split it. If he still declines then, that’s great but I’d then try and take him out and then I’d expect to pay the whole bill. If he refuses to let me pay, then I’d try and cover other things, cinema tickets, drinks etc.
Having said that, the last guy I dated paid for every dinner we had. I even tried sneakily to pay the bill whilst he was at the bathroom, but he just wouldn’t let me. And it was really nice. I see what you’re saying about it showing how much he wants to be with you; it did make me feel really special and therefore, consciously or not, the feeling was reciprocated. And I was more and more excited about him. Whether that was because I thought he would ‘look after me’ or not I don’t know, but it at least showed that he was romantic, which is what I would want in a relationship, but I would expect to give it back too rather than just receive it.
I’m fully aware that things might work differently in the US to the UK, but I think maybe our sentiments are the same. It would be great if the guy wanted to pay for everything, but actually it would make me a little awkward.
I also think I might feel that way as I’ve earned the most in every serious relationship I’ve had and so am used to paying the lion’s share or even (in my last relationship) paying for everything, literally everything, for 2 years!
So perhaps we shouldn’t stick rigidly to rules, but just go with what happens, if you really hit it off with someone then maybe who picks up the bill becomes less important.
All the best
Sophie
Hi Sophie,
Thanks so much for your response from all the way across the pond
. I should clarify, I don’t think a guy should pay all the time. As I demonstrated, I am happy to pick up the bill for everything from a nice meal to groceries and movie tickets. I just think, when you are first starting out dating, a girl genuinely appreciates a guy who pays most the time. It is what we have been told to expect and it makes us feel warm and fuzzy when it happens! Thanks for sharing your personal perspective and for responding without all the hostility that some others approached this topic with. Much appreciated!
-Cali
I just wrote a series of articles about this (http://crystalspins.com/2011/01/14/modern-dating-ettiqute/)and the men were bitching their heads off about it.
I got a bunch of fellas saying that I was trying to have my cake and eat it too. That if I wanted men to pay I should just get my ass in the kitchen and prepare myself for a life of domestic servitude.
I don’t agree with the statement that men and women aren’t equal. I would say that men as a whole and women as a whole are equal. We deserve the same opportunities and the same levels of respect and care. But as much as we deserve these things we aren’t the same. And the idea that a woman can do the same thing men can do and vice versa is stupid.
We are all biologically limited. I can’t pee standing up (without it trickling down my leg) any more than a man can get pregnant. And put up against one another head to head a man will win against a woman in certain contests and a woman will win against the man in others.
That’s the plan. We need each other. And together (especaially in a pair) we should make each other stronger. Both figuratively and literally.
On this paying for dates issue, one of the things women need emotionally is to feel special, pursued and cared for. And paying for the dates make us feel that way.
On the other hand, men need quite a bit of respect. And when you pay for the date, we respect you. It’s really a win-win.
Crystal
http://www.crystalspins.com
Thanks so much for chiming in, Crystal. Sorry to hear that you had so many negative fellas commenting on your post too! At first I was annoyed, but now I am just really sad. What happened to these men that made them so angry that they felt they needed to write a tirade on a girl they don’t even know’s blog. Sheesh. Agree to disagree? No? In any case, I agree with you on your statement that we need each other and your summation of how being paid for makes us feel. Your point about men needing to feel respected is dead-on as well. Many of the guys I dated have wanted to pay for exactly that reason. Thanks so much for the comment and I’ll be sure to check out your blog!
-Cali
So, let’s start this off with a caveat — every dating relationship is different. Personal experience: I went out on way too many dates between 1996 when I moved into NYC until I thankfully met my wife in 2007. I went out on about 400 first dates, and far fewer second dates. In fact, I would have gone out on far fewer first dates had people been more honest in their online dating profiles. But that’s another story.
With the exception of two or three times, I’ve paid for the first date without question. Not only did I expect to pay for the first date, I actually enjoyed doing it. It’s the way I was raised. For the first few years I always took a woman out to dinner for a first date until my female friends all convinced me that I was nuts both for the time commitment and the monetary commitment for women who I’d met online and might not be as advertised. The only exceptions were in cases where the woman absolutely insisted that she split the check. Ironically/fortunately, all were cases where I had no interest in seeing the woman again, so at that point, why bother “fighting” over the check.
Other thoughts – reaching for her wallet or asking if she can contribute, I believe are niceties that should be observed. What Cali did though could have contributed to the problem she experienced — but had it been a decent guy, it never would have happened.
With my wife, I paid for our first date (drinks) but she offered to contribute. I bought dinner for our second and third dates. Each time she offered. On that third date she said “I really appreciate how much of a gentleman that you’ve been taking me out and such. However, I have a solid career and I do make my own money and would actually enjoy taking you out one time.” My response was that I was old fashioned, and that I asked her out, and I was more than happy to pay, and it was so sweet of her to offer. I remarked that if she really wanted to pay, I’d let her, but she’d have to ask me out on a date instead. She called me the very next day to ask me out for our fourth date. I tried to get the check but she reminded me that I’d promised. I offered to contribute, she declined but thanked me. The rest is history.
In short, with very few exceptions, I believe that the guy should pay until the relationship turns monogamous. At that point, I believe that it’s appropriate for the woman to chip in from time to time.
An additional suggestion — some guys are almost offended when a woman offers to pay etc., as if it somehow takes away from their offer to buy the woman dinner. I’ve always disliked the “Can I at least get the tip?” The solution – if you’re really having a great time — why not ask him out for an after dinner drink or dessert? That way, you’re not taking anything away from what he’s done, and yet you’re still showing that you appreciate what he did and would like to reciprocate.
Great comment, Rex. Yes I agree that it is different for every situation (clearly! See above comments) And I agree with your summation, that with a few exceptions, the guy should pay until the relationship turns monogamous. All these commenters seem to be ignoring the part that I paid not only for dinner but for all kinds of things along the way. I am not saying girls should never pay, just that most don’t want to. And I was hoping guys would perhaps change their perception on paying. I was hoping they’d stop looking at it as som archaic unfair dating practice, and rather look at it as a way to make a girl they like feel special.
Thanks for the taking the time to leave a comment.
Cali
Okay, so let me get this straight. Payment has to do entirely with, what, gender? X and Y chromosomes? So what happens when gays date? They flip a coin? Fight? Make it a dominance issue? Here’s an idea. If YOU ask, YOU PAY. It’s how we always did it back in the Old Days. Sheesh. Glad I don’t have to try and date girls who think like you apparently do.
Julie, I don’t pretend to know anything about the rules for dating if you are gay. Perhaps they are different. I wouldn’t know. Simply stating my preference, and every girl I have polled’s preference, for how they want to be treated on a date. Clearly, there are exceptions to the rule.
Thanks for the comment,
Cali
I’m not gay. I’m just pointing out the massive, glaring flaw to your idea that payment is dictated by gender.
Hmm, but I am not saying the guy pays because he is a guy. I am saying the guy pays, because the girl wants him to and because it is a traditional way to show you care about someone. I would understand your argument if I claimed he should be paying based on his DNA.
Total BS. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. If you women want to be the “equals” of men, with equal privileges, then they have to assume equal responsibility. Which includes some sort of equitable distribution of expenses — not paying the check all the time, but being open to doing so, or to going Dutch (unromantic, yes I know).
Also, the word is spelled “paid.” Not “payed.”
Thanks for the grammar tip. I appreciate it. And not once did I say I want to be equal. I don’t. And again, I am open to going dutch from time to time, and picking up the bill (as I mentioned quite a few times in my post). I am simply explaining the reasoning behind why women want a guy to pay. It has nothing to do with money and everything to do with an action that shows you care.
Thanks,
Cali
Actually both are grammatically correct, but paid is the just more common and recognized spelling.
And I always use “paid,” I’m not a user of the phrase “payed.”
Haha, sweet! I was actually really annoyed with myself about that. I was like, “oh way to be a bad speller, self.” Wonderful to know I am just an uncommon speller
Wow, I’m shocked by some of these comments. Cali, you said it so plain and simple: it’s NOT about the money. I guess it’s difficult for some people to see past that. Even if you are a woman who sincerely offers to pay or believes it to be the right thing to do, it doesn’t mean you don’t enjoy the feeling of a guy paying for you because it is a form of being taken care of, and like Lex and Kel pointed out, one of the few that are left in this age of poking and texting.
Cali is simply trying to give insight as to WHY women appreciate and like the gesture despite the seemingly contradictory modern day expectations that are thrown around. It gets confusing and we understand. But this is how we feel; we can’t help it. She’s trying to help you guys out by letting you know.
Don’t get me wrong, there are definitely freeloaders out there, which makes both parties want to protect themselves (men from getting taken advantage of, and women from seeming like one of these unappreciative dates). I’m sorry for you guys who have fallen victim to this, but c’mon, we girls have been suckers when it comes to expectations in men too. It’s better to be safe than sorry though; if you genuinely care about the girl, show it. That’s all. Dating is not easy. If it was, this blog wouldn’t have been created and all you angries wouldn’t have put the time and effort into your comments.
PS. Gorbachev and Tunacrab, can I just say BITTER MUCH? G- I’m extremely interested to know what it means to you to be a Modern Woman “and all it entails” and T- talk about ending up lonely with an awful attitude! Sheesh.
Hi Lo – Thanks for the great comment. I appreciate you reiterating the fact that this isn’t about money! And truly it wasn’t supposed to be some whole big debate about feminism either. I was simply stating “best practices” for when you first start dating. AND thanks for noting that I was just trying to help the guys out. Truly, that was my intention. Somehow that seems to have gotten lost for many of them.
You are right, there are definitely freeloaders who make men (and women) want to protect themselves. But as you point out, us ladies have certainly been taken advantage of by guys from time to time. Does that mean we stop dating the way these guys are saying they should stop paying. Uh no. Please don’t let a few bad seeds ruin it for the rest of us!
You are right – dating is just not that easy.
Forgot to mention, I really enjoy Ricky’s Rule E: “Put in as much effort in planning the date as she does getting ready for the date.”
AGREED. Words to live by.
By the way this is 100% absurd and bullshit, if you look at it with a logical men´s mind:
“I am a self-sufficient, modern woman, but that is exactly why I want a guy who will “take care of me.”
But it can be felt/traslated, as I usually do to process what girls are saying:
“Im a woman trying to be and look my best (which in this particular time/era/culture means I have to strive to be an independent, modern strong person), so Im hoping for the best male out there to notice me and treat me as the woman I am, fall for the real me, and support me no matter if I fit on the role or not”
so… there you go. you can paint a woman in any color and culture you want, but the inner desires are always the same. and the same apply for men
Yes, sometimes things are lost in translation, but I think your adaptation of my statement to man-speak makes sense. My only amendment would be:
“I’m a woman trying to be and look my best (which in this particular time/era/culture means I have to strive to be an independent, modern strong person), so I’m hoping for the best male out there to notice me and treat me as the woman I am, fall for the real me, and support me when I fit the role and when I don’t”
Thanks,
Cali
Looks like there’s a lot of cheap guys that read your blog. It’s dinner. It’s drinks. It’s not a yacht. If you can afford it, than you should. If you can’t, then you can’t, it’s not that big of a deal. She’s probably not dating you for your ability to buy $14.99 pasta dinners at will. If she is, then you should bolt. Better luck next time Charlie Brown. Just because I buy a girl dinner or drinks, doesn’t mean I’d like her to sleep with me, or that I even want her to. I like buying girls (friends and dates) drinks because I like the way it makes ME feel, as a human being, the ability to share, this sense of chivalry. Let’s suppose it wasn’t something monetary like dinner and drinks, but instead it was opening a door for a female? Is that different? I mean I know she’s capable of opening a door, but as a gentleman you should open the door for her. If I am capable of opening that door for her I will. If you are capable of buying her dinner and drinks and a pony, you should.
Sharing is caring,
Steve
http://www.SingleSteve.com
I have only one word in response to this – bingo. Thanks Steve. After today’s comments I have been feeling quite sad about the state of men these days and the anger they seem to have towards woman. In all honesty, I didn’t even see this as a controversial post! I thought this was a bit common knowledge. In retrospect, I suppose I have just been darn lucky to have been on so many dates in my life and never even had this be an issue before. Apparently there are quite a few guys out there who have very strong feelings on the subject.
Thanks for the comment, Steve, and for restoring my hope in MAN-kind. You = awesome-sauce.
-Cali
“She’s probably not dating you for your ability to buy $14.99 pasta dinners at will.”
that and her ability to make you do so
Perhaps you didn’t read the next sentence….
“If she is, then you should bolt. Better luck next time Charlie Brown.”
Moral of the story:
Guys stop dating girls that only want free dinners.
Girls stop dating guys that won’t buy you dinners.
Excellent moral of the story.
Um, can I date Single Steve?
Winner.
He’s the bestest! And he even shared it on his fan page where I am getting a lot of nice comments and support. My night just got a little bit better
Single Steve is single…
Steve, check the shit test thing at hooking up smart
“check the shit test thing at hooking up smart”
Um, what?
Upon research I have found said “shit test” — Here it is: http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2011/03/21/relationshipstrategies/why-we-shit-test/
Wow- I too am blown away by the negative response to this post. What seems like a light-hearted, commonly-shared sentiment was taken way out of context by people who come across as bitter and angry. As a single female who works hard and takes pride in my accomplishments, I too absolutely appreciate it when a guy offers to pay. If that means I want to have my cake and eat it too, so be it. Go ahead and throw a scoop of ice cream on there while you’re at it.
What the post doesn’t cover are all the things that Cali most likely does as a courtship moves more into a relationship. Like any quality girl would, I’m sure she finds thoughtful ways to contribute, monetary or not. This post isn’t about that, though. It’s a simply put plea to the guys out there who don’t seem to understand why it’s important to us, or how such a simple thing can make such a great impression. No one said to take us somewhere fancy. First dates shouldn’t be like that any way. Do your part by being a gentleman, and if you’re at all observant, you should easily be able to tell if you’re with a lady, or not.
Thanks Cali for taking one for the team. And Lex, you’re awesome.
Amy – you are my new favorite person. LOVE the comment about go ahead and throw a scoop of ice cream on there too. You are awesome. And you are exactly right about all of the other things that women (and I) do to contribute to a relationship – both monetarily and otherwise. Thank you very much for your response.
And I too agree that Lex is rad.
Thanks so much! You guys are makin’ me blush!
Since when did being female, educated, and financially independent become mutually exclusive with men paying for our dinner?? No one here has tried to assert that us single women want to be treated equally as men in the dating arena. (In the workplace, when it comes to salary for the same job/skills/effort – okay yes we do and we can have that debate at another time.) Here, we are talking about dating, and if you try and play the “equality” argument you are going to get owned. There is no such thing as equality in dating, pretty sure we’d all be single. You men if anything should be grateful for just how easy it is for you these days. And if you’re bold enough to bitch about spending $ on your date – then YOU my friend are the problem and you are most certainly NOT worth dating.
Oh and what is this myth about girls getting guys to take them out on dates for the free dinner!? I do not know ONE SINGLE woman that would do that. I know I sure as hell am not going suffer through a tedious dinner date w/ a guy I don’t like. I have a LIFE…
A lot of my friends have experienced this. One of my friends told me her boss (now a high powered attorney) fed herself through law school going on dates.
And I’ve definitely gotten that impression from some of the girls I’ve gone out with.
So it’s NOT a myth just because you don’t do it, and you have a life and you don’t have friends who do it. I’ve met women who have admitted to as much.
I dated a single mother that on our third date I realized she didn’t even want to date me, she just enjoyed me paying for her outings. She’s also Escargot in my blog.
I think the best thing for paranoid guys to do is to take girls on a cheap date where you get to know them on a first date. You pay but you’re not dropping 200 dollars on some fancy dinner. You grab coffee, go play putt-putt or bowling.
You can gauge your interests afterward when they actually look or act anything like their profile.
While I don’t doubt you that these girls exist, I think they are a very small portion of the female population. I am with Lex in that I have never met another girl who would go on a date with someone she wasn’t interested in just for a free dinner. Do you know how long an hour and a half can be?? There is no way a night of my time is worth $15 bucks (or even $1,000 bucks for that matter) if I don’t want to be there.
I don’t know the details of your situation, and I trust you that this was truly the case here. But I have to wonder if for other guys, framing a girl as “someone who just wanted a free meal” is easier than looking at her as someone who just wasn’t interested in him.
Thanks for all the good responses!
Who knew this would stir such the hot debate? Cali, I always enjoy reading your blog. I’ve been out of the dating scene for a little over three years and sort of fell into my current relationship. I may not be the best to speak on dating today, but I can speak from the perspective of a girl whose “courtship” carried through into the wonderful relationship I have today.
He’s a traditional Texas boy (according to him, so no one jump down my throat) who opens doors, buys dinners, fixes my flat tires, etc., etc. I can’t speak for any other girls out there, but I’ve offered to pick up the tab since day one – and I meant it. For me, we didn’t go on our first dinner date until about two months into the relationship. I think this is another changing detail of dating the 20s – it seems to be a group activity where friends all meet up at a bar and if you couple up, you get drinks. Dinner seems to be a fleeting idea of the past (at least where I live currently).
Needless to say, my guy paid every time. He picked up the tab for me and the girlfriends I was with. I would never expect anyone to do the same, but I can say that his genuine generosity and sincere interest in not only me and my interests, but the friends I surrounded myself with is one of the endless reasons that I’ve fallen for him. It’s not about being taken care of for me, it’s the small acts of kindness that he’s always put forth. We’re in a serious, committed relationship and like the point Cali is trying to make, it’s not just about the money or equality or status or any other angry reason readers are coming up with. Plain and simple, it’s an act of kindness and genuine interest. This goes both ways, guys and girls. If you reach for your wallet, mean it.
That’s my 2 cents.
Hi Katy – Thank you for your two cents! I, for one, did not know this was such a hot debate. As someone who has only been in this situation once, I don’t think there are really THAT many guys out here who are so angry about this topic. However, I seem to have brought all of them out here, didn’t I?
In any case, I love to hear the perspective of someone who is happily in a relationship with someone who treated her so chivalrously in the beginning. You are completely right. It isn’t about expecting a guy to pay. And I don’t expect it either. But I do hope for it, because as you put it, it is an act of kindness and genuine interest. So true! Thanks for your comments.
-Cali
What’s up Cali? I’ve been reading your blog for some time and I felt it was time for me to finally leave a comment. (I love it by the way.) This is a topic I’m very passionate about and often here my single girlfriends complain about the guys that don’t understand the simple concept of taking care of a girl. We might be complex creatures, but if you watch, listen and learn, you’ll see that the code can be cracked.
I’ve been happily married for five years and have two beautiful daughters. One of the reasons I fell in love with my wonderful husband was because I felt taken care of. Not taken care of in the sense of fancy dinners, jewelry, clothes, etc. I make my own money. I can pay for those things myself. Taken care of because I felt safe, secure and loved. It all started by the way he treated me when we first met. He was unemployed at the time (due to an injury that forced him to stop working) and I knew that, so I made sure we didn’t go to super fancy dinners or crazy outings, but I made it clear that I wasn’t going to pay for everything. He paid for our first date and most of the dates thereafter, but I was sure to offer a few times here and there and even pay for the dates I coordinated. And, we got creative on our dates. We didn’t always go places that cost money. Those were some of my favorite dates.
I’d love to know how many second dates some of these guys have been on. I can almost guarantee that if you puss out on paying for the bill on a first date, you probably won’t be seeing her again. My husband was UNEMPLOYED and he still paid. We’re teaching our girls that they need to be independent women and the men they surround themselves with should respect them and make them feel safe. Part of being respectful is balance and sharing. Those characteristics should be apparent the first time our girls meet any man.
The funny part is he now makes more money than I do and I still don’t let him pay for things. I want to contribute too. And I do because he helped establish our mutually respectful relationship right from the start.
Cali, I think you were being respectful- just as this douche should have done with you. You just got done paying for a $125 meal. The next meal should have been on him- no question. He’s not good enough for you and neither is any man who argues your point. You deserve to feel taken care of- loved, safe and respected- while still feeling self empowered and strong.
It’s easy guys. Seriously. Grow a pair and stop trying to find your next mommy and watch for your next partner.
xo
Dear Miss RB – Thanks very much for your comment. So great to hear the perspective of someone who is happily married! I think your comment explains the entire situation perfectly. The truth is, when a guy really likes you (like enough to one day marry you) he WANTS to take care of you. All the other bullshit stops mattering. Whether he has the money, whether he thinks it is an unfair/outdated rule – none of it matters. A guy who really likes you, wants to take care of you AND the result is a very happy girl. Like I want to spend the rest of my life with you happy. Thanks so much for your comment and your support.
-Cali
What’s with the snarky comment at the end? Maybe you can say, maybe women shouldn’t be looking for their daddy either?
Wow Cali, you know how to heat things up!! I was lol-ing at many of these comments – mostly because there are clearly guys out there who a) don’t get it and b) have ended up in a long-term relationship since they come across as such happy guys! (lol – had to throw sarcasm in). These guys have never heard of chivalry. I’m as modern as the next woman & have dated guys that make more than me and less than me (I’m married now). What it comes down to is being thoughtful and considerate. We want a man to be a man. Chivalrous if you will. Sure there are bitches out there who only want someone who can help stockpile their handbag collection. But those of us that matter – the real women – want someone who can take charge of a date and not bitch about what it costs. A real man can make a woman feel special even if she’s going to a taco shop for dinner. Guys, if your goal is to date a woman of substance, it requires a touch of being ‘old fashioned’ and chivalrous. I agree with a previous commenter who said this should be the case until you’re in a monogamous, committed relationship. So do a self-check: if you’re having trouble finding a ‘real’ relationship, I’ll bet you don’t believe in chivalry.
Hahah I love sarcasm! I had to laugh a little too as I re-read the comments last night. Such anger! And all on a little pink blog. Come on kids. I am not writing a thesis here on the truths of the the world.
Completely agree that what it comes down to is being thoughtful and considerate AND about the part about wanting a man who will take charge of a date. I love when a guy calls me up and suggests a date, time and place. It is extremely attractive to know he has put so much thought into me already. And yep, once you are in a “real” relationship – that’s a whole other set of rules.
Thanks for the comment!
It’s no surprise to me that this topic has stirred up such a debate. You’ve got guys who are “doing it wrong” so to speak who are getting a rude awakening, you’ve got guys who feel vindicated for paying, and you’ve got women on both sides of the issue.
As I see it there are only two issues in dating that possibly would get more reactions, “Why am I a slut if I sleep with him on the first date, whereas he’s awesome for doing it” or “Can I date my friend’s ex?” (And before you slam me about the sex comment, I do believe what’s good for one gender is good for the other.)
Ladies and Gentlemen, let me tell you the simplest rule of dating out there. There’s truly someone for everyone. There are guys who love it when a woman asks them out, and those who consider it emasculating. There are women out there who prefer to pay so they don’t feel like they owe the guy anything. There are couples that always go dutch, and those where one always pays.
Guys, this isn’t about doing it because you “have to do it.” If that’s your attitude, don’t bother, they’ll see right through it anyway. And no one here suggested that you had to take the woman out for a $600 dinner. If coffee, tea, a drink, dessert, taps out your budget, perhaps dating isn’t a good idea. That said, there are plenty of even cheaper dates now that spring is here (well, in some parts of the country).
Ladies, I’ve gone out on enough first dates to know which women genuinely appreciated the gesture and which ones expected it. The worst are the women who time a trip to the bathroom right as the check comes, and then don’t even say thank you after I’ve paid the check. If the other person (regardless of gender) picks up the check and you can’t be bothered to say thank you, you deserve to remain single forever. What should you / could you do? 1) You could genuinely offer (I had a few women go as far as to remove money from their wallet or take their credit card out – as opposed to the fake reach). 2) If he bought dinner (and assuming you had a good time) you could offer to get him a drink at the bar at the restaurant or another bar, or buy him dessert. I think either of these is far more meaningful than offering to pick up the tip.
More good insight! Thank you. For those guys who were “getting it wrong” I wasn’t trying to make them feel bad about how they’ve handled it in the past. Rather, I just want to make it easier for them in the future. You may not love paying, but if you love the girl, and it makes her happy, then that makes things easier on you. It’s really as simple as that!
Great point about there being someone out there for everyone. Clearly there are ladies out there who want to pay their own way – and good for them! Looks like I may have a few blog commenters they can date
I can only write from my perspective and the perspective of the people I surround myself by.
Thanks for the follow up comment!
I think you’re right on, Cali. I think it’s time that some guys start recognizing the hybrid woman who enjoys being treated like an old-fashioned lady but can stand on her own two feet.
More importantly, I want to tell Yohami that his comment made me want to barf. You think that if a woman can go toe to toe with a big major male CEO that she’s LOST HER FEMININE ATTRIBUTES??? Did her boobs fall off and her nurturing nature just disappear when she realized her job was on the line and she had to step it up? You are destined to be fooled by a smart woman one day, watch out.
Haha I too kinda wondered about that comment. How does me being good at my job make me less feminine? Last time I checked, boobs AND nurturing nature are still intact.
Thanks for the comment!
yeah, chances are she will become manly in the process
just look at the top female lawyers
What’s funny is that women as a whole have believed that they could dramatically “empower” themselves and change society, and expect men to stay the same through it all. News Flash: Men have become empowered too. More guys are feeling less obligated to participate in social norms that aren’t beneficial to them.
.
With all this talk about “modern women,” I say kudos to the “modern guys” out there who do what they want and don’t bow down to women’s or society’s expectations.
Hey Jimmy – I am all for guys doing what they want, however I wonder if it gets them what they want in the end. I always hear guys complaining about not being able to find a quality girl. But perhaps that’s because they are too busy “doing what they want” and bc they are looking at it as “not bowing down” rather than seeing it as a simple act to make a girl smile. It is all about perspective in my opinion. You can view the “modern woman” as the enemy who needs to be punished, or you can embrace her. Up to you!
Thanks for the comment.
-Cali
You know what’s great about dating a strong independent woman? She doesn’t need you. She wants you. You always know that. Dinner is a small price to pay for that glorious feeling.
But yeah, I’m with ya on this, Cali. Guys can make all the arguments they want, but real men pick up the tab. Every argument they make is an excuse. And men don’t make excuses. They pick up the tab. And the do it so smoothly, you don’t even know the check has come.
That said, if you want a real man, Cali, act like a real lady. You’re buying breakfast for a guy who you’re fighting about tabs with. There’s a milk/cow thing happening here.
All true, although I think its interesting you assume that because I was picking up groceries for breakfast I was therefore sleeping with him. Let’s not jump to conclusions, now! That being said, I shouldn’t have bought him breakfast regardless bc he was pissing me off in so many other ways besides not picking up the tab.
Thanks for the comment,
Cali
Men used to pay because women had no money. If you have a proper job too (and if not why not to be honest) then why do you expect a man to pay?
You say:
“When a guy pays for a girl it tells her that he likes her, he wants to impress her and he definitely wants to date her.”
So, couldn’t you say vice versa? It would certainly show me a woman liked me if she paid for dinner. Of course I would never expect something so ridiculous, and the fact that it’s tradition doesn’t make it any less ridiculous the other way round in a modern setting.
Because there are enough guys who will conform, you in practice have plenty of guys to pick from (assuming you discontinue dating those who won’t sub you). But that doesn’t mean it’s right. Some women above say they’re looking a man who will “look after you”. Well ladies, there are plenty of ways a man can do that, but since a man paying for the things that you do or use is all it seems to amount to here, then call a spade a spade. I prefer women who will stick around for my company, love, affection etc, not my wallet.
It’s not about expectations so much as it is desires. And yes, I do say vice versa applies. Hence why I paid for that $125 dollar dinner.
I think you are missing the overall point. We are sticking around for the company, love and affection. But we are looking for romance too. And if you want to view the guy paying as a ridiculous tradition – fine. But most of us ladies, don’t.
Thanks for the comment,
Cali
Cali,
I’m all about when you start dating, the guy should pick up the tab. Especially if he asked you on the initial and next few dates. It’s proper etiquette in my opinion because it does show that he likes you.
For me, my rule is after two or three dates (depending on how well it’s going) the female should at least offer to split the bill. That’s how it was with me and my boyfriend. He paid for the first two dates. On our third one I offered to split the tab. Of course he was shocked (like no no you don’t need to, but that’s probably because he’s from a small town in Ohio and that’s just what they do out there). After I said please, it was fine with it.
Naturally after awhile of dating, I think it’s only fair that you split most things. You pick up a tab here, I’ll pick up the next, etc…
Hi Becca-
I definitely agree that after a while of dating it starts to even out, especially when you are talking about grabbing a quick burrito or are going out for drinks. But I still love it when my guy picks up the tab on a nice dinner every once in a while. Makes me feel special!
Thanks for the comment,
Cali
You’re certainly entitled to your preferences, but @belinda, the “if you don’t act the way I prefer you to act, then you’re not a ‘real man’” line is highly obnoxious. I’m happily engaged now, but when I was dating I hated paying for my date. I spent the last few years in law school in NYC, competing for grades, journals and jobs with intense, very smart career women, who many times beat me out for the jobs I wanted. Being expected to buy things for these women – who are my peers and even competitors – always rubbed me the wrong way, to the point where I wouldn’t schedule a second date sometimes if she obviously wanted to pay (some of these dates did the “reach for the wallet thing” but did it incredibly slowly, eying me intently, etc.). It wasn’t a litmus test or anything, but it made me not call again in at least one borderline case.
The obvious solution is to not ask girls on “dates,” especially to dinner, but rather to arrange to hang out or get drunk at a party and just take her home. I don’t have a problem treating someone I’ve already slept with. Dinner dates during the “courtship” phase are generally a low hit rate anyway (this fact, coupled with resentment over being expected to pay, may be related to some women’s complaints about how no one ever asks them on actual dates anymore).
So there’s a workaround. I took one of my hot, overachieving competitors home after a party a few years ago, and we’re getting married in June. But I bought her absolutely nothing until we were hooking up.
Let me be clear and say I’m not mad or anything and I don’t blame you for your preferences – it’s probably nothing you have control over after all. But I do suspect that if American women somehow suddenly dropped, en masse, this particular box from their collective dating checklist, the number “actual dates” happening around here might shoot up. Just a suspicion.
Also – the whole “whoever asked for the date and selected the location should pay” rationale is pretty transparent. Given social realities (and the fact that women love to be led around to cool places), this just means that men should pay.
Interesting post. I have enjoyed reading the comments almost as much as the post itself. I believe in paying for the dates, always. With my last girlfriend, I always paid, it’s my ‘love language’. When I like someone and want to show interest, I buy them things, or look after them however I can. It’s part of the old school male instinct to provide and protect those they love. I’m not saying that’s right for everyone, but for me, that was the best way for me to say “I love you.” I wasn’t a huge talker, and never have been, but I thoroughly enjoyed buying little things every now and then. It made her feel special, and it made me happy. Just my $.02
I have a serious, non-sarcastic question (answers to which may or may not confirm a hunch I have). Many posters here have stated something along the lines of “I expect him to pay because it makes me feel special and desired, and in return I do so many kind things to make him feel special and desired.” My question is: what exactly do you gals do that you think is so kind and makes the guy feel special and desired? Please be specific and detailed.
Thanks!
G.S.
I refuse to date a woman who doesn’t offer to pay. Once it’s established that she’s willing and able to take care of her share, I’ll usually end up paying for most stuff, for reasons similar to what you listed. But any girl that EXPECTS me to pay won’t last past the end of the date.
Alex, I do see your point. And I realized after I wrote that, that it came across like I “expect” guys to pay, but that wasn’t my intention. I always bring money on a date and am prepared to pick up the bill- I just don’t want to. And what I was trying to do was explain to guys as to WHY girls don’t want to.
Thanks for the comment!
girls still want to feel old fashioned, like when they didnt have jobs, were told what to do around the house, coudn’t vote lol.
I have seen it time and time again. What it has to do with is this: If a man likes you, he is generous with you. It doesn’t matter if it’s 500 dollars or a dollar. When guys don’t want to take you out – within their means, they really don’t like you. If they don’t have money, they will give you flowers they picked or write a song for you. If he starts talking about liberated women and money, he may not have much respect for women – or at least not for you. If he just wants you to come over so you can do it without taking you out, he probably doesn’t like you. If he does like you, he will offer to pay as soon as the check hits the table. (See @MGS) @Gav – that’s one way of finding out if she really likes you and it was a gamble for her that she ended up in a relationship. It’s one I wouldn’t be willing to take, but I’m really, really old fashioned and it’s very, very upseting for me to deal with hookup offers but very few date offers.
Thanks for the comment! You are quite right, if a guy likes you he is generous regardless of his means. He wants to impress you and one (of many) ways he does that is by offering to take you out. He can also open doors, compliment you, hold your hand, etc…
Thanks for reading.
I am sorry, but if a woman doesn’t WANT to pay and thinks that you should PAY for her time and attention that can only mean one thing: She doesn’t respect you, she thinks she’s way too good for you and because of that you need to COMPENSATE! That is never good! Guess what I do if I get this feeling… I DUMP HER ASS!!! Look, I will pay for dinner & drinks, but at least fucking buy me an ice cream afterwards! It shows that you don’t want to take advantage and that you are interested in me because of reasons that don’t have anything to do with money. GET IT?
Or what conclusion should we draw from this behavior? That if we would ever think or offering you something like .. oh I don’t know, let’s say… ORAL SEX, using extrapolation, it means you will not return the favor. Or… better yet, should we get to the conclusion that you will make it up for the dinner in bed!?
Oh and what happens if the relationship somehow gets really serious? Your income is your shoes shopping money and his income should sustain the home, right?
Oh please! There is a word for women that take money or material benefits in exchange for intimacy and. Us, men as well as the English dictionary call them WHORES.
Great use of all caps.
Not disagreeing with you. A woman should definitely grab the ice cream afterward. I think, you, like a few of the commenters are displaying some displaced anger. No one is disagreeing with you that a girl should pick up the tab every once in a while. We are just saying that we really like what it says to us when you pick up the tab.
Men and women impress potential mates differently. If I like a man, I want his jaw to literally drop open when he sees me. I spend an absurd amount of time making sure that my skin is smooth and glowing and my hair is shiny and bouncy. Silly? Yes. Superficial? Yes. Appreciated by my date? God, yes. Men don’t realize the time and effort (and expense) women put into ensuring that we are stunning and radiant when we go out on dates. Our efforts are our way of impressing men.
Now on to the men: Just like Cali has stated, men show they are trying to impress us by taking care of dinner. Now this is not to say that a man has to spend obscene amounts of money on a 12-course meal. On the contrary, he just has to show that he is making an effort to sweep his date off her feet.
Story time: I am an overworked and underpaid Ph.D. student in Chicago. Last summer I was asked out by one of my fellow students, who is also severely low on funds. He took me to a free concert in Millennium Park and packed us a picnic of sandwiches and cupcakes. The whole evening probably cost him $5 at the absolute most. However, I was beyond impressed with his efforts. This is really what this argument comes down to: both sexes want to feel that their potential mates care enough about them to put in EFFORT.
To the bitter male posters above me, I have to wonder if the women they are attempting to date are just not interested in them. If a female turns up on a date looking disheveled, it indicates that this date was an afterthought for her. I can only conclude by their responses that the women displayed no effort on their parts and were not at all interested. I would be bitter, too, if I had to dine with a disinterested troll.
Bottom line: it is not about money – it is about EFFORT.
Side note: English is my 3rd language, so I apologize in advance for any grammatical errors.
Hi Elaine, I couldn’t have said it better myself. Thank you for summing it up so nicely. It is exactly that – it’s about effort. And hell yes we take a long time striving to look perfect for each date. At the end of the day, I am realizing that more guys than not, see it this way. Perfect example. I went on a date this last week with a very attractive, cool, funny, awesome guy, who (and I can’t remember how this came up) was telling me how he thinks guys should pick up the bill on a date bc it is chivalrous and chivalry is not dead. I pretty much melted right there. That’s what it all comes down to. Woman like to see Men make an effort and we like a little chivalry in our lives.
Thanks for the comment.
My basic principles on who pays are these, and are WIDELY at odds with our OP Cali and most of her crew.
I approach this stuff from a game perspective. I’m sorta 2/3 natural and 1/3 learned by observing high seduction success achievers, and my own successes/fails, before the word “game” came to mean what it does. I’m talking a game genesis ages ago here.
As a general principle early dates should be cheap and maybe creative. I say that despite having a ton of money at this point, and well kinda almost always having a good bit of money. Upper upper middle class upbringing, but parents not into spoiling w/out achievement.
When flirting with a girl I don’t know in a bar, the hotter the girl the more I’m likely to get her to buy the first round of drinks. When she asks me to buy her a drink I’ll tell her to get the first round and if she’s a fun girl I’ll get the next one. Or I might say if she’s really fun the next two.
I realize most of you girls not to mention beta guys who are clueless about game think she won’t like this, that it’s arrogant and that it won’t work, but you’re all wrong. It definitely tends to work with the right kind of cocky, teasing, not trying hard, confident smirky kind of delivery.
I basically don’t believe in paying much for a girl before I bang her. This has nothing to do with being cheap. I’m loaded. Raises the odds of a quick bang a lot. Whether I go out with her a bunch after banging depends on how much I like her. Her giving it up fast doesn’t tell me she’s a slut necessarily. I like to think I’m kinda good at that. There are other tells, but really for short or medium term flings I don’t care. I prefer relationships, actually ideally a couple at once with maybe a fuck buddy in the kitty usually. Though I’m in love now and cohabitating. But doing fMf’s sometimes. She’s such a sweetheart.
Back to historical times. Post bang I basically think dating costs should be split. Well really split kinda pro rata according to income. Very roughly fools. That ends up being I pay for the reasons I’ve stated. Well except symbolically quite a lot. I mean I make my girl pay for cheap stuff as a matter of principle. Lamb shewers in the park or while out and about and not taking time for lunch. Sometimes a mid priced restaurant meal. Well I don’t have to make her. She knows I expect her to offer sometimes. I cover most stuff and all the big stuff cause I make loads more.
When I had a fling as a teen one summer with a recently divorced early 30s cougar, she paid for nearly everything. I paid for some small (tiny) things symbolically.
Look pretty bitches, you wanted pay equality, and you have it when there is truly equal work. Hell you’re actually paid more for the same hours and work (taking into account how unpleasant or dangerous it is) on average. (But because making oodles of money doesn’t make you more attractive to attractive guys and may actually hurt, you lot while still wanting to earn strong for independence and not having to settle for a non hot guy and so on, don’t really have big big money hunger nearly as much. On the other hand there are probably fewer true female slackers. You bunch in the SWPL middle.)
So that means equal paying on dates is the right thing, overall. You know you’d do that with a guy you consider hot. It’s only beta providers you’re considering settling for that you expect to pay despite same range income.
But there’s this thing called female hypergamy, where you lot generally want a guy with somewhat higher status and a lot higher income (who’s still at least kinda hot), and he kinda wants a girl with somewhat lower income at least, for masculinity, leading reasons. I mean when we leave the PC bullshite aside and get down to brass tacks.
So that leads to proportionate to income paying on dates, more or less. Any time a guy pays more than that post bang, he’s signaling he’s a beta provider type guy, and makes himself less sexually attractive to her. Maybe attractive as a good dad, but as for me, no thanks.
As a man I always expect to pay for dates – and for the most part that is how I like it. My rule is: I offer to pay, or just go to pay it. If the girl offers to pay I appreciate it and pay it anyway. If she insists twice – she pays it.
I don’t like it if the girl reads the check. If I’m paying, it is a gift because I like you, so the cost should not be a concern for her.
Some women insist on splitting everything or on alternating who pays. I’ll tolerate the alternation thing – but I don’t like it.
I won’t tolerate check splitting on a regular basis. It is unsexy to be splitting things down to the dollar level like that.
I like feminine women which is why I like paying for dinner dates. I know it makes you feel special – so it is my pleasure to treat you.
And of course I do the asking, I open doors for you, I buy you nice things on valentine’s day, your birthday, and christmas. I pay for our weekend getaways.
That is because I’m a man – not a whiny little boy. I make good money and I’m happy to make you feel loved and protected.
On the other hand – I won’t date women who don’t cook. If I come to visit you I expect you have prepare something for me. It makes me feel special, like you care about me.
If I leave clothes at your house – I expect them washed next time I see you. Dress shirt pressed. If I’ve got pajamas at your house, I’m expecting them washed on a regular basis and folded – not wadded up in a corner of your bedroom floor.
I keep my house pretty clean. I’m expecting your house to be cleaner.
If you come from a traditional family, you are probably looking for a stand up guy like your father. If you want to attract a guy like that, my advice to you is: be more like your mother.
So fellas, if you like a girl, and yet are still unsure of the when-to-pay rules, I’ve compiled a quick list below to help you navigate through this sticky situation:
If it is a first date and you called her and asked her out – You pay
If it is a first date and she called you and asked you out – You pay
If it is a first date and you called her but she suggested the restaurant – You pay
If it is a first date but you’ve already hooked up – You pay
If it is a second date and you payed for the first date – You still pay
If it is the 15th date – You pay
Wow – this is one very intricate $h!# test on your part there Carrie to sauce out what ‘guys’ you ‘date’ are going to be the provider beta chumps.
And some think there is no such thing as ‘girl game’ – LOL!
It’s Cali, thanks.
It’s Cali, thanks.
Oops, my bad.
(love ur blog)
Haha thanks.
I am of the older generation and it’s important than men pay for dates.
Of course, when I throw down over $100 for dinner and drinks, I expect something at the end of the date. Just keep that in mind when you expect men to pay
Good luck with that.
Interesting perspective. Completely insane, but interesting to see…
Speaking as a mid 20s guy in the dating game: I’ll pay for the first date (something cheap and fun, not a dinner) if I ask a girl out, after that all bills should absolutely be split (or simply alternate who pays).
Have you ever done the math on the guy’s end? Let’s say that, conservatively, a man goes out on one dinner date a month at about $100 a date (gas, main courses, wine, maybe an appetizer or desert, taxes and tip). That’s $1200/year on first or second dates with girls with whom no LTR will happen.
Where I live, that’s two months rent OR 3-4 months worth of food OR a nice vacation. Most men in their mid 20s are just starting careers and not making a ton of money in the first place, so that $1200 dollars a year is a lot cash. Chances are that any girl I’m dating is in the early stages of her career and making something similar to what I am…and you think the women should be free to spend that extra cash however they choose to? Why is that you should be able to afford an extra vacation every year simply for being a woman? Why should women not financially contribute to forming the relationship?
Beyond the simple math, you say that paying for the meal makes the lady feel special and cared for. What are you going to be doing for the man to make him feel special and cared for?? Seriously, it’s a two way street. How do you show that you’re interested in forming a real relationship if you’re not willing to contribute?
I’m assuming that you’re not going to put out for a man just because he paid for dinner. Is your mere presence simply supposed to be enough for the man? Then why isn’t his presence then enough for you?
Anyway, I’m not bitter or angry, I just utterly fail to see how women can possibly claim the right to compete against me on equal footing in university, in grad school and in the job market and then expect the privilege of being paid for on all the dates when they are likely doing just as well financially as I am.
Hey There,
Thanks for your perspective. At the end of the day, what I took away from all the various responses to this post, is that there are a lot of woman who feel very strongly that a man should pay for them and a lot of men who feel as though they shouldn’t. The truth is, everyone just has to find someone who has the same stance that they do. I disagree with you though, that woman are making the same as men. They just aren’t. Is it the 50′s? No. Is there still quite a discrepancy, yes. Also, I think your math is wrong. I have never had a first date that cost 100 dollars! We are talking maybe $30 – $40 (although if you are taking woman to $100 first dates, good for you!) Plus I usually drive myself on a first date and if we go for drinks somewhere after, I always grab the tab. My hope is that whomever I am dating can afford a $30 dollar meal in the same way that I can afford $25 for drinks after. Thanks for reading and for taking the time to share your thoughts.
-Cali
There is a discrepancy because women generally gravitate towards jobs that don’t pay that well. The wage gap has been debunked. Pay discrimination is illegal.
You are right, it’s not the 50′s. In the 50′s, a woman would stay at home and the man would work. Men had no issue with chivalry because they didn’t have to compete with women in college and the workplace. In 2011, women who compete with men from 9 to 5 still expect men to treat them like a 50′s girl from 5 to 9. Certainly you can understand why men are growing frustrated with these unrealistic demands.
Ladies, if you work, pay your bills and still expect a man to buy you dinner, you are not independent. You are dependent. Also, the “whoever asks, pays” system is flawed because women generally don’t initiate dates. They wait for the man to make his move, lest they surrender their free meal ticket.
Men are waking up at an alarming rate. We are realizing that women expect the best of both worlds, while the men are still stuck in their antiquated role. We work, provide and protect, and we are sick of it. Women either need to get back in the kitchen, or pay for their own dinners.
I personally think the first couple of dates the guy should ask the girl out and he should pay for everything. On date 3 if the girl asks the guy out and she is setting the agenda, she should expect to pay for the main event. I think it would be odd if a girl called me up and said she wanted to go to a concert and I better hurry up and buy her a ticket before it sells out lol. I would offer to drive and pay for stuff at the concert though. Long term I typically take turns paying and I end up paying more times than the girl I date, but I also have a good job.
Back in college there was one time my friend wanted all the guys to pay for the girls we were with when we went to Olive Garden. It was 3 guys and 5 girls. He was given $5000 a month to spend by his parents, while I on the other hand had to pay for my entire college myself by working at a crappy paying job. Olive Garden was a big splurge for me back then and needless to say it got awkward fast as we argued in front of them. I rarely paid for girls, because I couldn’t afford to do it.
The reason why guys used to pay for everything and were “chivalrous” was women used to be thought of as useless and needed a man to protect them. Guys used to open doors for women because women were “too weak” to do so. Guys used to pay for women, because women didn’t have jobs. After women’s suffrage, women gained equal rights, but also started to lose their special privileges. Women do have jobs now, so they can pay and should not rely on a man to pay for them. I have met women who do go on a date with a guy just for a free meal or girls who hit on guys at bars to get a free drink. Kind of sad. If a girl has a better job than the man, she may end up paying for more. Why do you think there are sugar mamas and cougars?
I definitely agree with this article. I actually consider it a turn off when a guy looks at me expectantly, as if he’s asking ME to pay. I should never have to foot a bill.
There’s been one instance where a guy asked me to pay for half, and all I ordered was a small drink while he had a big meal to himself…
I can assure you I didn’t answer his phone calls or texts the next day.
I’m old fashioned, I appreciate the door opening, chair pulling, basically, the chivalry that isn’t showcased anymore. Call me a gold digger, call me shallow, but as soon as I see that one red flag of cheapness in trying to please his woman, it’s bye-bye-bye.
Thanks Melissa! Uh, yea, they guy who asked you to pay half when it wasn’t even – that guy is NOT a keeper. Glad you kicked that one to the curb. I think your last two sentences summed up exactly what everyone who agreed with this post is feeling. Unfortunately it appears that this is harder and harder to find!
Thanks for reading,
Cali
“Call me a gold digger, call me shallow, but as soon as I see that one red flag of cheapness in trying to please his woman, it’s bye-bye-bye.”
And you agreed with that quote from Melissa.
Question: Why do you not hold yourself to the same standards you expect from men? If I don’t pay for your dinner, I am cheap, but if you don’t pay for my dinner, you are being romanced?
Good luck in the dating world, toots. You continue to set women back. You are a weak, dependent, little girl.
Dude. You just commented 6 times on this post. That is too many. I suggest you check yourself and see why ANY post, written on a hot pink blog, would warrant that much of your time. Also, when trying to win an argument, many people appreciate brevity. You may have had good points, but I’ll never know as I got bored in the middle of comment #2. – Cali
What if you fall in love with a guy but in a year he loses his job? dump him bc he cant pay for a date now?
Um no. That’s ridiculous. A. This post is in regards to when you first start dating, not once you are in a loving and committed relationship. And B. I am not saying girls expect a guy to pay. I am saying they want him to. It was an attempt to help some fellas see the whole “who pays on a date” in a different light. What I learned, there are a lot of extremely angry guys on the internet. Not you per se, but others. (Like the guy who commented before you whose comment I am not approving because he called me a bitch and the C-word). I am just glad I am not dating those guys!
This is too funny. Women have the nerve to call themselves independent. LOL!!
I agree the guy should pay for the first date. In general though, whoever initiates the date should pay. If a girl asks me out on a first date, I will go ahead and offer. However, she asked me out and I will let her pay. I would also more than make it up to her next time. If two people like each other and start a relationship, they should take turns paying and in the end it should be roughly 50/50 with the guy paying more than 50% to be on the safe side. I’m a good catch. Personally, I’m not looking for a girl who would let me pay for 15 dates in a row. If we had been on 5 dates and she never paid, I would move on. There are plenty of girls out there that want to be fair.
To be honest, I completely agree with you Adam. And I would never, and have never, made a guy pay 15 dates in a row. I was simply making the point that there are so many guys out there these days who seem confused when girls are upset, mad, distant or over it, and perhaps it is because there is this discrepancy in what many guys and girls think is proper dating and money protocol. Thanks for your comment!
As I make my own money and pay my own way….doesn’t make me independent…it makes me SELF-SUFFICIENT. Women are taking this independent thing tooo far. In a relationship, you have to be INTERDEPENDENT. God made us to depend on each other….
Just because I am taking care of myself doesn’t mean that a man shouldn’t do his part as a MAN. If you met a woman that you thought was interesting and wanted to know more about her….Should it be her responsibility to pay for you to get to know her? Point Blank: Men if you approach a woman, ask for her number, and then ask her on a date….MEN should pay….you are the one who initiated the whole encounter.
Stop worrying about the whole “Modern Women” thing…Women have no choice to work because MEN are the new B*TCHES…Always complaining and whining about women working and making money and wanting women to pay for initial dates…It’s a date for crying out loud…not breakfast in Paris…if you don’t want to spend $30 – $40 dollars in hopes to meeting some great woman…then stay home and watch repeats…and jerk off!!!!!
Most women spend money on getting themselves ready for a date….they may buy a new outfit to impress you, get their hair done, etc. So Men, don’t feel like she doesn’t appreciate you….she does that’s why when you pick her up or meet her, she looks stunning…from head to toe…and she wants you to impress her by showing her she is worth you WANTING to pay for dinner…
Just my thoughts….
When I got the email saying that someone had commented on my dating and money post, I thought, oh GOD, I am not in the mood to deal with another bitter and angry man cussing at me. So to read your comment, literally made my day. I completely agree with every word you said, so thank you for putting it so eloquently. You rock.
-Cali
Most women don’t initiate the first date, so the “whoever asks, pays” system is unfair to men.
Also, it’s real easy to say, “It’s a date for crying out loud…not breakfast in Paris”, when you are not the one picking up the tab. If women had to pay for our meals, you all would change your tone very fast.
Seriously, you all are weak, dependent little girls. Get your ass in the kitchen you cavewoman.
By the way, there is a name for people like you; it’s called prostitution. You told men to spend $30-$40 to meet a woman. In other words, you advocate paying for a woman’s time and companionship.
The only difference between you and a streetwalker is that a streetwalker can at least admit she is a hooker.
With all due respect, this statement is moronic. You left out a key aspect of prostitution…. the exchange of sex. But in any case, for the one millionth time, I am not saying a guy has to pay. I simply wrote this post to explain why woman want to be paid for, in the hopes of helping guys who sometimes feel like they just don’t understand us. You can call me/us anything you want, but it doesn’t change the fact that a lot of woman feel this way.
“You can call me/us anything you want, but it doesn’t change the fact that a lot of woman feel this way.”
Fair enough. And a lot of men want women to be submissive houswives who cook, clean and provide sex when it’s requested.
You can call me/us anything you want, but it doesn’t change the fact that a lot of men feel this way.
I suppose that disclaimer trumps the sexism in both our expectations of the opposite sex?
Is this whole post supposed to be a joke?
This is 2011, we live in an equal society. You sound like a spoiled brat. Its okay though, guys today are starting to wake up and realise that this is a double-standard, and sooner or later, the amount of guys who can be manipulated into always paying will be very short. I’m 18 (and I’m more mature than you, wow!), and in my generation, things are more equal, and most of the time, only girls who dress very slutty get paid for all the time, so I’m sorry to say your spoiled views aren’t getting passed down.
A relationship is a two-way street, it is about making EACH OTHER feel special, not just one person. The “it shows he cares” excuse is old and one-sided, unless the woman is going to return it by also fulfilling HER gender roles and doing all the housework. If you’d rather be independent and have your own money, then you can surely pay for yourself.
The expectation should be that the one who asks pays. Then after that you should go Dutch. There is no logic behind anything you posted – it is all one-sided. The important thing about dating is that you have fun and get to know each other, but you choose to base it all on money. You think a relationship is all about you, when it isn’t, it is a couple. Most girls in my generation would actually feel uncomfortable and guilty if a guy paid for them.
I also forgot to mention that a lot of guys who always pay are only after sex.
Interesting reading the article and the subsequent comments by males and females.
Cari, while I understand the sentiment behind why a girl wants a guy to pay to show that he cares enough for her, I think some guys maybe jaded from previous experiences where the girl was just using the guy. If the guy does pay for dinner all the time, the girl should show some form of tangible reciprocation (doesn’t always have to be money or sex) to show that she cares about the guy during the relationship. By reciprocation, I mean more than just words & token affection, because those can be easily given with insincerity, and it’s difficult to tell if the girl is being manipulative or not based on that. Otherwise, from the guy’s perspective we feel like we’re being used and are doormats. When the girl does pay without personal reservation, it shows somewhat of tangible investment to the relationship.
Also showing that you care care about the girl, can take on more forms than just picking up the tab. For example, guy proactively learning to take on an interest that the girl likes (ie. learning salsa dancing/learning to cook a girl’s favorite dish). That shows genuine interest in the girl and that he cares enough to go outside his comfort zone to get to know the girl better.
My 2 cents anyway…
Hi Joe,
I love your 2 cents. You hit the nail on the head – many guys are jaded from past experiences with girls who sucked and were just using the guy. I hate those girls. They ruined everything for the rest of us!! And yes, totally right that there should be reciprocation (in a non-money/sex way) and yes it should be sincere. I’ve found guys appreciate when you make them dinner, and not just like a quick out of the box meal. But I’ve spent hours preparing a gourmet meal when it is a guy I really. And finally I agree that there are other ways to show you care, and I think any of those would be just lovely. In my experience not a lot of guys do any of those things either, so paying was a much simpler option
Thanks for the read and the thoughts!
-Cali
Having read your posts and a few of the comments, I think you girls are failing to understand the difficulties of being a guy in this day and age. Especially when it comes to dating.
If a man is earning just as much as you do, yet he pays for everything, to the guy it feels like we’re being used. Even if the girl I’m with is stunning and we’re having sex, (etc) after the 4th or 5th date, if I’m still paying for the entire bill i then start to think maybe the girl I’m with is being quite selfish.
After all, if feeling taken care, and feeling feminine feels so good to you, why are you only focusing on your OWN feelings. Why is it more important to you that only you feel good about the situation,while I pay and slightly resent the fact that you haven’t forked out any money in our outings, DESPITE the fact that you make as much money as I do.
After each outing, I’m out 60 bucks each time, you’ve still got the 20 you had in your purse. Tomorrow you can go shopping and buy those shoes you want and I can’t because I just went on my 6th date with you and I’ve spent about 250 bucks on you this month.
To keep paying the bulk of the bill 15 DATES in, is just ridiculous.
I agree with you Cali that the 1st date is on the guy, the 2nd, maybe even the 3rd, the man should probably get 80-100% of the bill (depending on the woman).
But after the 3rd date, it’s ridiculous to continue to expect a guy to drop cash that you could quite easily drop yourself.
After that amount of time the courtship dance is different, you’re dating the man, not the wallet. Don’t just OFFER to pay, just pull out SOME money without even asking and pay. THAT to me shows a sign of an independent, strong woman. One that understands that in the real world, people have money problems outside dating.
As a man, I’m not going to request that you pay, because I’m a man, I have pride. But half-assedly offering, or simply assuming i will, is just rude and inconsiderate. I might not bring it up right in from of you, but I will notice that and slightly resent you for it.
I’m a human being after all, with bills to pay of my own, accept and respect that.
So LADIES, if you like a guy, and yet are still unsure of the who pays rule, I’ve compiled a quick list below to help you navigate through this sticky situation:
- If it’s any 1st date: HE PAYS (all of it)
- If it’s a 2nd date: HE PAYS (all of it)
- If it’s a 3rd date: HE PAYS (Most of it 80%-90%, but pay for something…ANYTHING to help him feel appreciated)
- If it’s the 4th date: HE PAYS, YOU PAY 60-40
- If it’s the 5th: (sorry, courtship dance is OVER) SPLIT THE BILL
Times are different, I don’t need to be supporting a grown adult with a fledgling career of her own.
Well said LeonD, really shows a woman’s character / or lack off
” If it’s any 1st date: HE PAYS (all of it)
- If it’s a 2nd date: HE PAYS (all of it)
- If it’s a 3rd date: HE PAYS (Most of it 80%-90%, but pay for something”
That system is merely a social construct. Women hear other women say that, and they spread this type of misinformation amoungst their female friends. That system was created after the feminist movement in the early ’70s. There was no mention of it prior to that era. It was created by women, and is perpetuated by women. Men will appease the status quo, as usual. But don’t kid yourself; they only do it to increase their chances of mating.
” If it’s any 1st date: HE PAYS (all of it)
- If it’s a 2nd date: HE PAYS (all of it)
- If it’s a 3rd date: HE PAYS (Most of it 80%-90%, but pay for something…ANYTHING to help him feel appreciated)
- If it’s the 4th date: HE PAYS, YOU PAY 60-40
- If it’s the 5th: (sorry, courtship dance is OVER) SPLIT THE BILL”
So on the 5th date, men can finally expect equality; but how many women will go on 5 dates with a man? If anything, you just created a loophole which women can and will exploit. If a woman only goes on 2 dates with a man, and then says she lost interest, she will never reach the 3rd date. She can repeat this process on many different men without ever having to spend a dime.
Fortunately, men are waking up to this economically unfair double standard. It won’t be long until even more articles like this are on the internet. Personally, I could not be more thrilled about this issue. It’s time women joined us in the 21st century. Remember ladies: anything I can do, you can do better. Check, please?
There is so much in the article that is appalling and illustrates what is wrong with single women in American society. If the woman can’t afford to pay her own way, then you don’t need to be dating or going out…if you expect a man to buy your meals and pay your way for everything in the hopes you might have sex with him, that just makes you a despicable whore.
Women wonder why guys treat them like shit after they have sex a few times…it’s because the sex really wasn’t worth the money spent on dinners to get it, and once the guy realizes that, he also realizes he doesn’t want to be spending money all the time on some woman that is just trying to take advantage of the situation.
The type of women that most impress men are the ones that make their own, have their own, and buy their own. And THOSE are the women WORTH pursuing and spending money on, because they’re not in it for a free meal or gift.
Women cannot expect to be treated with respect or as an equal when you lower yourself to exploiting guys for dinners and gifts. If you want to be equal, then pay for your own meals or whatever the activity is, especially on first dates. The guy doesn’t know you, and may not ever see you again…why is he obligated to pay your way simply because you have a vagina and mammary glands?
Bottom line…stop portraying yourself as broke exploitive skanks, have some self-respect, and if you feel like eating dinner, pay for what goes in your own mouth.
You paying your own way has nothing to do with a guy “being able to afford you”. If that is a woman’s mentality, she doesn’t need to be dating, she just needs to be listed with an escort agency.
I used to respond to these comments, however I have lost interest in doing so. You clearly didn’t read the post or the comments. No one is dating because they can’t afford dinners nor is anyone saying guys have to pay. This is simply some insight for guys who seem unclear on how a lady likes to be treated. The anger that you and a few guys have expressed over this is both pathetic and humorous. I do wish you luck in finding (and keeping) your special someone. I hope she has low self esteem.
(Disclaimer: If you read just one sentence of this comment make sure it’s the last sentence!)
Actually at least some women use first dates to get free dinners –> http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-11-29/news/30453560_1_match-com-roommates-japanese-restaurant
After that read I went through the first dates that never had a follow up in my head.
Basically I think you have an egocentric world view. You want the best of both worlds. You want the fifties with its chivalry without the staying at home and being a homemaker-part. You want the new millenium with its endless opportunities in the professional world without responsiblities that come with it. All so that every part of your life is taken care of in exactly the way you want it – no compromise.
Also, you shouldn’t brush of the comments off as “pathetic” and “humorous”. Read “Is there anything good about men” by Roy Baumeister and you will better understand some of the angry comments.
Cali:
I’m not reading through all the comments your readers have left. I don’t need to analyze your article one bit, because I’m a 54-year-old-woman who feels completely and finally validated, by your words here. Yes, you write about dating in the 20s, not my age group, but I read your article to find out whether things have changed so much in recent decades and that my attitude is behind the times. It’s not. Your article lets me know that there is nothing wrong with what I want from men. I am a reasonably attractive divorced, hard-working woman on an extremely tight budget, who has been on the dating scene for 5 1/2 years. Getting dates was easy, but recently I gave it up because I can’t afford it, financially. Also, I tired of the resentment I felt over paying 50% of evdery first meet, 50% of every first date he asked me on, 50% of every second date, and 50% way into a full-fledged relationship. Yes, even when the men have more money than I, I’m putting out 50%. I just ended a serious relationship where the man was thinking that one day we may marry. One of the reasons was that I could no longer afford to date. The other reason was that I was not in love (he could not figure out why I didn’t feel ‘in love’ like he did) and could not imagine going into yet another month of time-consuming relationship obligations with a man who never saw fit to estend to me the old fashioned romance that I craved and spoke to him about on many occasions (romance being something I’ve never experienced in my life). I resented him every time I set my debit card on the table, knowing that this meant I’d be eating ramen or rice every time I was at home eating alone. And he always wanted to come home with me, of course. Men my age are not old fashioned whatsoever, in my experience. They now fully expect women to pay half the time, as if we are just a friend or buddy, yet they want all the perks of having an intimate romance! I want to feel special, worth being romanced, not like a 50/50 buddy! I’m done dating–5 1/2 years was too long an investment in men my age, and I’m taking back my pride and my time.
“I want to feel special, worth being romanced, not like a 50/50 buddy!”
So feeling special and being worthy of romance is only reserved for your gender? That’s what it sounds like you are suggesting.
Oh, and let’s stop this female-created-myth that men who suggest Dutch are only interested in being friends. One of my ex girlfriends always paid her half of the meal, and we dated exclusively for over a year. We were very much in love. She knew that I loved her, even though I never paid her tab.
Ladies, this problem is not going away. In fact, the resistance from men is gaining strength and will continue to do so. Men no longer expect you to be kitchen slaves (traditional role), so why should we pay for your cosmopolitans and lobster dinners (traditional role).
Either retrogress back to how your grandmother’s lived, or stop expecting us to behave like our grandfather’s. It’s hypocritical and speaks volumes about your character.
Time to stop the BS.
Men don’t feel to pay dinner to women because women aren’t vulnerable creature like 100years a go.
So girls stop tell yourself that you are a romantic because you are acting just ceap.
And ceap and more ceap when you go out with your girfriend.
In north europe women are more femminine of the USA and if you try to pay for them they may don’t feel right.
In NYC if you go out with friend woman just pretend to get free drinks anyway… is not romanticism it is just be unsensitive.
Plus how about have some respect for men witch you obviosly don’t like. What you are looking for is a slave that take care of you.You call this a man…
unfortunately there is many idiots(men) raise from wrong women that truly belive in the own slavery and may enjoy it!
Why people can just be fair anywaythis is the line of the evolution.
I’m not pride of maschilism and I don’t want see women in the world cleaning like slave and do thinks that don’t make them feel good. The pleasure must be a fair game and on both side.
Jessica very good.
You just experience what a man experience the whole life.
You work hard and people seating on you..trust me isn’t fun!
Sorry but this is real life. You arent different from others. You have been just the typical spoil incomplete woman that can’t find a man attractive and be in a relationship if he doesn’t take care of you.
Wrooong! That was your daddy not your man!
If you couldn’t effort why you haven’t stay home with him a chatting on the couch.
Men don’t get from women anythingh of what the own fantasy imaging expecially sexually.
Example : Having sex with a hot stranger is a unbelivable experience for a man. Everyman should try.
A woman must wait 3 weeks or months before intimacy.
A man at that point has lose 80% of his creativity.
We can’t impose it. We make adjustment at the woman feeling. You don’t leave the woman because the quality of the sex isn’t good (well i do).
I can bring millions of example…you woman keep going with his ridiculous story of THE MAN THAT TAKE CARE OF YOU.
Who doesn’t feel good if someone take care him…comeon!
I love this response! Thank you! I’ve linked to this post in one of my own blog posts.
Cali is right, it’s not about the money, it’s more about the gesture. If a guy treats me out to a dinner, I’ll want to treat him the next time we go out. It’s more romantic that way. By the way, I just dated a guy who wanted to go dutch at every single meal. It was awful.
So in other words, you only do nice things for men on a reciprocal basis. In order for you to treat a man to dinner, he must treat you first. What if the man treats you, and during the date, you realize that there is no chemistry? You get a free meal, and he never receives the chance for reciprocity. Clever girl.
Romance is not an excuse to be sexist. It’s more romantic when women shut their mouths and stay in the kitchen. See, I can be sexist under the guise of being romantic, too.
Oh Bob, sounds like you have been used by selfish women. If I wasn’t interested in a guy, I would not let him pay for me because I wouldn’t want him to get the wrong idea or lead him on in any way. I was referring to a long-term dating scenario. And yes, if the guy does something nice for me (like paying for me at dinner), and I LET him pay for me because I was interested, then yes, I would love to reciprocate, whether it’s treating him out or cooking for him or giving him little gifts. Do you really see something sexist about taking care of each other?